Squirrel control - take care

[Exeldama]

Woah vegan ... now that will start a debate and a half. i do agree with Henrietta in that if you actuallly take pleasure causing pain then your a bit sick in the head. However there is no absolute , i suspect most rational humans would avoid killing anything except in self defense, or for resources. (that resource may equate to your trees..which equates to your posessions, your capital, ...we protect that which matters to us...so does every other animal)

Death is the most natural thing in the world and something we will all face one day, the only issue is how we end those days and personally i think fear is the worst scenario...thus causing fear to an animal is not a good thing... thus a form of quick killing is the best.

Animals die, the world out there is not middle class comforts and waitrose soup... animals kill each other ,often by tearing each other apart, or animals die slowly from injury , sickness and starvation..that is the natural world.. humans though just smart apes can at least make it a little less of an ordeal and so they should when killing.

I was aware of the destructive power of squirrels when it came to birds and eggs , plus the red squirrel issue but it wasnt til i bought my wood and took a look at the tops of so many trees that i realised what a hamering they had taken....yes nature will find a way to balance things out and yes if we vanished today it would continue and set a new order which might not have matched our manicured ideal....but the fact is humans are here and they do manage their enviroment for their own needs.. so does every other animal on the planet....

I dont hate squirrels i think they are resourceful little creatures with a lot of charm, but again that is anthrapomorphic.... squirrel nutkins is a myth they are as rutheless in what they do out of necessity..they want to survive , have sex and produce other critters.... so does everyother species...... i think personalising animals is the most misplaced of all are failings...they live, die, fight, rape, murder,steal, bully, just as humans do..what they dont do as far as i am aware is do it with the concious rational that we do.. which is why we have less excuse...We know what we do.!... My point..?? ....... THERE ISNT ONE

[Henrietta]

I'm certainly not a candidate for squirrel nutkin, and well aware that every creature does what it needs to do to survive. Humans go way beyond that point, in that we are the only species that can make choices. We are also in charge of every other species, which should put a huge responsibility on us, not to cause unecessary suffering to others. The charge of anthrapomorphicism is an easy one to make, as it is often used to disarm those who believe that every species has a right to live according to their needs. Of course we are different, in that we are EXTREMELY capable. We have bodies which enable us to be very dexterous with our hands, plus the power of speech, but I don't think this makes us infinately superior at all. I would agree that if you are going to kill an animal that it should be done quickly and cleanly, but we all know that death isn't that easy, and how many bodged attempts are there?

I have a friend who farms sheep. A properly trained person comes out and kills them in the field. They are given a bowl of food, there is no stress and the whole business is over quickly. At one point this slaughterman was told he couldn't do this and he stopped. My friend said she would not continue with the sheep if they had to go to a slaughterhouse. Luckily he did continue.

Years ago, I had pigs, goats and chickens. We lived on Anglesey at the time and I took my animals to Caernarfon abattior (not the chickens). On arrival, the pigs, were beaten in with sticks. They shook so much with fear that they could barely walk. They were four months old (pork weight). I also took six male goat kids, three months old. They played together in the back of the van. I have no idea what their end was like or the terror they felt. When I killed my chickens, my farmer neighbour said all the flapping is just nerves. No it isn't, they are suffocating, as was my dog, so called put to sleep, by a vet. The injection is given, and it all looks peaceful as the animal collapses. The muscles have been paralysed and the dog cannot breath.

I have killed thousands of slugs in my garden, I reckon I had the national collection of them. I used to go out at night and cut off their heads with secataurs. I became sickened by all the killing, and now put down protection round the plants or grow things which don't attract them.

I know this is a personal thing and we all see things differently, and you must do what you think is right and so must I.

[RichardKing]

When I was a kid we used to go and stay with some friends of my parents who were farmworkers in Suffolk. Besides growing vegetables on their allotment they kept a lot of chickens & rabbits and also had a pet dog.

Their youngest boy was probably about six years old & it did not seem to bother him when his dad put the chicken & rabbits under the axe.

But clearly a question had been building up in his mind and one day he said

"Dad, when are we going to kill the dog?

[woodlander]

Henrietta

Surely by choosing not to kill vermin all you do is avoid the responsibility and pay someone else to do it it .(via your rates )If no one killed rats we would soon run out of food and thousands would die ,similarly if rabbits were allowed to breed unhindered vegans would be the first to starve ! .

[Henrietta]

Woodlander

I don't understand where you are coming from. Regarding rats, their chosen food is grain, chicks and goslings, not vegetables. The vast majority of grain is grown to feed animals for milk or meat consumtion. I can't remember the exact ratio, but it is about five times as much grain is needed to convert to meat as would be directly consumed, needing far more land to grow it on, far more fuel and pesticides. Eating meat, especially in the vast quantities it is consumed in the west is what will cause a world shortage of food.

As for rabbits, they are certainly a problem eating crops. I have to say that the amount of rabbits killed in this country is negligible. If the rabbits were killed by properly trained people and it was done quickly and cleanly and the meat was eaten to replace the some of the intensivelyreared meat in the supermarkets, then I think that would be a good thing. But we know this wouldn't happen. More likely, rabbits or squirrels would be injured by idiots with underpowered pop guns and too much testosterone.

Vegans do not live just on vegetables any more than meat eaters just live on meat, although I know some who eat little more. I have to say also that being vegan is very recent for me and not altogether true as I still eat road kill (pheasants), which get plowed down in vast numbers in this area. Up untill recently, I was eating game. Having Goodwood and Cowdrey very near was very handy for venison, pheasant, and wild boar. I may well go back to eating those, but I will never eat anything that has been through a slaughterhouse again.

I really don't think there are any black and white answers. All I am concerned about is the welfare of the animals while they are alive, and the mode of slaughter. I'll stop now as I'm way off topic.

[Exeldama]

I love these chats as it brings out so many views.. you Henrietta seemed to have assumed i was assuming something about your view when it was in fact a generic view of things...

Everyone has a though, and you are all wrong except for me..unless you agree with me in which case you are still a bit wrong on principal.

I love the idea that we as humans have control over animal as if its something unique.. dont bacteria and rats have control (aka influence on us just the same). Im always concious of this high and mighty view humanity has of itself as if all we do is everything there is ...very arrogant. The very fact everything we do impacts on ourselves in the turn shows we are not some mighty stand alone creature... cause and effect.

Henrietta you did seem to touch on your own veganism a bit and much of what you said is logical.. but the greatest logic of all is that there are probably too many humans to healthly sutain themselves... to sustain that we which have come to expect will take continued changes to our enviroment.... many at the expense of our wildlife. It is only our big brain that allows us to go to such degrees...if squirrels had brains as big as ours its likely they would be doing the same and i suspect they would be better drivers (spatial awareness).

On the slaughter house front i do agree that they are awful places... but how many people even if they could would hunt their own food.....it just doesnt fit in with our position in the enviroment anymore.. nor does everyone surviving as a vegan..i appreciate some do but they only do so because others dont...lets not forget that millions of acres of forests have been burnt to provide space for growing crops much of it for direct consumption.. the Incas were pretty good at it until they caught a cold.

Our whole existance is flawed and as with the squirrels i have no doubt nature will kick our behind in due course..global pandemic, water wars, fighting over ever diminishing resurces ..its not rocket science..... that all said i still like squirrels, im sure they taste great but i wouldnt ever take pleasure causing fear or pain.

[Henrietta]

Exeldama

You are absolutely right. I didn't want to rant on about veganism, I was boring myself to death in the end. My stating I was a vegan was beginning to look wildly inacurate. I was expecting to be picked up on the bees, as vegans don't keep them. I don't know about squirrels making good drivers. They are all over the place, far too eratic.

[treebloke]

Henriatta wrote 'I have lots of grey squirrels in my wood but I haven't seen all this damage you all describe'.

You are very fortunate, I have witnessed substantial damage. Grey Squirrells are vermin and should be treated as such, there is no place for sentiment with these I am afraid.

[Henrietta]

I suppose the destruction of millions of acres of forest, Exeldama, depends on where you are talking about. If it is the destruction of South American rainforest, much of it illegal, then that is used for raising beef cattle for the insatiable burgher and beef steak appetite of americans.

The millions of acres of forest destroyed in Indonesia, have been destroyed again much of it illegal, to produce palm oil, which is used increasingly for bio-fuel. Other uses being, cheap margarines and food products, cosmetics and soaps, ie Dove products, Unilever being one of the largest companies connected with palm oil production. All this has little to do with being a vegan. The Incas put all their eggs in one basket, namely maize, but they would have had to leave the area anyway because of year on year drought.

[RichardKing]

"The Incas put all their eggs in one basket, namely maize"

Not true, potatoes were their main crop.

But dont forget sweet potatoes, chili peppers, tomatoes, peanuts, oca and quinoa in addition to maize.

Fish, llama & alpaca meat also a feature.

In fact this area and the Inca diet were noted for its crop diversity