A man has been prosecuted and ordered to pay over £1,500 in fines and costs for drowning a squirrel he caught in a trap. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-fined-for-drowning-squirrel-2030149.html)
Squirrel control - take care
(38 posts)-
Posted 1 month ago #
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i saw that on the news - and i can't believe it - how ridiculous
on a plus side it is acceptable to shoot it or hit it over the head - to kill it
Posted 1 month ago # -
How to dispose of the evidence! Sounds tempting, although I'm not sure my wife would agree.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/7900963/First-catch-your-squirrel....html
Does anyone else have a taste for them?
Posted 1 month ago # -
I was flabbergasted when I heard this chap had been fined for drowning what is classed as vermin. The Rspca approve apparently of you hitting the squirrel over the head just once, can you imagine it, you open the trap put the squirrel down in front of you, pick up your club, tap it quietly on the bonce whilst it stands still, no I don't think so. I love squirrels and to ensure that the next generation is well trained for all eventuality's I am running some swimming classes, not a lot of success lately but I shall persevere, maybe the cage is a tad heavy?
Posted 1 month ago # -
You need mini arm bands, Woodbodger.
Posted 1 month ago # -
Thats a thought , my Jack Russell has tried mouth to mouth resuscitation.
Posted 1 month ago # -
i have tried swimming lessons for rats - they aren't so go at it either
Posted 1 month ago # -
Serves him right... im no fan of squirrels but i wouldnt want one to suffer.
Drowning is CRUEL. It used to be common practice but it takes little brain power to appreciate thatsquirrels will suffer the same as you..cant believe how ignorant people are sometimes.If it were a puppy or a kitten people on here would be up in arms but just because
wehave decided to label squirrels apestits suddenly ok to cause suffering....right..!!As said i dont much like squirrels but we put them here and they are only trying to survive the same as the rest of us. If you have a problem and decide to catch them dont be thick..... know what your going to do once you have one in the cage. Pest control shoot with a small air pistol, properly done its humane, clean and quick.
As to the RSPCA the whole issue is wether a method causes suffering... a correctly applied blow to the head will do that.... you are entitled to do the same to your dog and the like but you wouldnt because your not competent to do so..who would be..
Controlling things /killing is not the issue, the courts took their view because the guy was a fool and cause suffering to the squirrel when he didnt have to...lazy, stupid who knows.
Posted 1 month ago # -
An air pistol is underpowered and should never be used for any open ground pest control, they are limited to 5 (or 6?) foot pounds which is nothing. OK to finish off a small animal in a trap at point blank range IF you know what you are doing. A squirrels brain is tiny and hard to hit. You need a full power 12 foot pounds air rifle for taking things down from trees.
An air rifle will do it, but it's always a precise tool in the hands of an imprecise shooter and chances are you'll knock the beast down but need to finish it off by hand. A shotgun is the most effective method - instant kill, no danger to others from stray shot, but it will damage your trees and possibly leave metalwork in there, which isn't good when a chainsaw spits it back out in 10 years time. Never use a 22 rimfire rifle for anything in trees.
FWIW I dont think squirrels, or most other woodland animals, suffer the same as people. They don't have the neurological structures for abstract thought, planning, self awareness and emotional processing which is what defines human suffering. You'll see the same behaviours when they are injured as a person shows and it's difficult to resist the conclusion that they are somehow similar to people in their subjective experience of pain.
I don't like to see animals suffering because it provokes a strong conditioned emotional response in me, not because I think their experience of it is anything like mine. If I thought it was I wouldn't shoot.
Even seeing an earthworm writhing around if I accidentally cut one in half with a spade sets me off.
J.
Posted 1 month ago # -
How fabulously erudite I enjoyed reading that, I think the word is anthropomorphize when we put human emotions and feelings onto animals.
Posted 1 month ago # -
Sorry James but in my opinion your very wrong. Firstly i have several friends who work as proffesionals in pest control and whilst i dont know what pistol they use..a pistol is what they employ. As said no-one without exception should be killing anything unless they can do it without causing suffering.
as to your coment about squirrels or similar not experiencing pain in the same way, im afraid your about 30 years out of date.
The UFAW did a huge amount of study into this issue and of course we have the Bateson report as well... there is absolutley no doubt that higher mammals experience pain the same as we do, what is diffrent is the manner in which they express that pain.
In the wild state animals tend to
hidepain for very obvious reasons.. they still exibit the exact same neurological response. As to theFEARfactor... i suspect i have more experience than anyone on here with handling wildlife that is injured and in pain.... and i can assure you wildlife squirrels included do feel pain and do suffer extremes of stress....Again i say if you can kill cleanly then i have no problem, but to cause suffering is ignorant and has nothing to do with anthropomorphism. we are only animals so are squirrels lets not get too excited and think we are set up in some higher manner that precludes other animals to suffer.... your analogy of an earthworm is irrelevant...they have a completley diffrent neurological set up.....
Posted 1 month ago # -
Oh and just as an aside...bare in mind that within the legal system the courts have to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the issue of suffering is proven...this is not a subjective test... it has been challenged by defences and gone to Judicial review. the result is a clear one and supported by scientific authority higher than either of us.
Self awareness and pain are very different... drowning causes pain, ... its the same old argument for those people who used to stick reptiles in freezers to kill them if they were sick and they didnt want to pay for a vet...
Reptiles dont yell out and in fact hide there suffering very well... but freezing before unconciouness causes the cell walls to fracture as ice crystals form... again the reptiles bodiies produced exactly the same hormonal response as one would expect in a pain/stress respone....
Animals dont produce these chemicals for a laugh... there is a purpose to it.. and that is exactly what pain and stress are they are very real.
Posted 1 month ago # -
I wonder how the squirrels told you? The same way the earthworm tells me.
Posted 1 month ago # -
WB - wait till the rest arrive!
Posted 1 month ago # -
Hi all!
As this is an emotive issue, may I remind us all that the written word is easily misunderstood and without the to and fro of conversation can get muddled.
play nicely ;-)Posted 1 month ago # -
As Tracy says - lets play nicely - maybe the hot weather is causing a little frustration....
We don't really want to come down to the level of some other forums on the web do we? I'm sure I'm not alone in getting irate at some things that others say on here but if it is soooooo contentious I bite my tongue and go and rant off-line - we're never all going to agree so maybe agreeing to disagree is the best option.
Love and Bananas,
GreymanPosted 1 month ago # -
It's a subjective thing really. Does a fox care about the squealing of the rabbit when it's slowly killed?
I will always go for the clean kill, but how many times has that happened?
If you catch a squirrel in a live trap it's already suffering. I don't see the point of drowning if you have a large stick handy.Posted 1 month ago # -
Yeah I suppose it is a very difficult morel dilema to resolve. I hate to see any animal suffer more than is necessary, however we have cats, mainly to keep the mice out of the house, but the cruelty they inflict on their prey before killing or sometime not is appauling.
I do trap squirrels and in an ironic way the cats inflict even more cruelty on them as I am unable to use the 'instant' kill fen type trap for fear that one of the cats would accidentally trigger it off. They have to wait a miserable few hours until I get round to my twice daily checks.
Wish there was a better way, but I can't think of one.
Posted 1 month ago # -
Squirrels seem to be on the news a lot at the moment - this story was on the BBC breakfast news programme - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7915674/Budgens-criticised-for-selling-grey-squirrels-for-food.html
Posted 1 month ago # -
Not that emotive for me..just plain logic.
Unlike the cat we have the ability to make decsions based on other than emotion... if you dont have to cause suffering and you do ...well that says a lot about you i guess.
James... you dont seem able to appreciate what i am saying.. so if i may just confirm for you.... i am about as un-anthropomorphic as they come. But neither am i one of those nutters who think we (humans) have some super right over all the worlds animals etc... very often this appears born of some subliminal religious bent which is a personal thing but not my cup oftea. You and i are mere upgraded monkeys... i dont presume to be anything else. That said i can peel my own bannanas..can you.. !!
Dont worry Tracey i am being nice and im sure Bannanas dont offend.
Posted 1 month ago # -
Where is the logic if another animal suffers. Surely we are just fulfilling our own emotional needs?
Posted 1 month ago # -
Theres a lot of unnecessary cruelty in modern farming practice. I assume everyone speaking out against animal suffering are all vegans. Or is it ok to let others be cruel on your behalf?
Posted 1 month ago # -
I believe the most humane method for dealing with grey squirrels is a modern powerful spring trap (kania etc.)
If I was given the choice between being drowned myself and a few weeks slowly haemoraghing to death on warfarin I'd take drowning everytime - but I think an instant kill in a spring trap would be far preferable.
I used to use live traps and then shoot the squirrel in the trap - but despite what people may say even a direct hit on the top of the skull with a 12ftlb air rifle does not give a certain instant kill - their skulls are dramatically stronger than a rabbits - and using a legal limit air pistol rarely gives a kill with the first pellet.I do appreciate that the slow accumulation of the effects of warfarin, over a couple of weeks, is what makes it safe to use from the point of view of effects on woodland scavengers (foxes, badgers etc. would have to eat squirrel carcasses killed by warfarin poisoning everyday for 20+ days to kill them) but still a very cruel death for the squirrel vermin or not.
Squirrels are a huge threat to woodland (if only the woodland trust was brave enough to try and educate their squeamish townie supporters) and need to be controlled - but I believe we have a duty to be humane. This isn't about anthropomorphising human perceptions into the head of a squirrel - squirrels are not humans in small grey suits, they can't suffer as a human, but they can suffer as a squirrel. Surely it's preferable to avoid inflicting that if we can?
Posted 1 month ago # -
What a preachy sounding git I am! But as I said it's what I believe rather than claiming what I'm saying as an incontravertible fact.
Posted 1 month ago # -
I'm not a vegan, but I'd go for a quick kill anyday.
Posted 1 month ago # -
A wildlife campaigner has drowned a grey squirrel to challenge the RSPCA to prosecute him.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigner-drowns-grey-squirrel-2050871.html
Posted 3 weeks ago # -
Over the weekend there was a Press report that the campaigner refused to speak to the RSPCA when they called. The next day two policemen appeared and took him in handcuffs to Bedlington (mainland not far from Holy Island) where he was held for 9 hours until the RSPCA showed up to interrogate him. Expect more developments. Apparently the first case has gone to appeal.
Posted 2 weeks ago # -
Correction to previous post: _Belford_ *is* fairly near Holy Island, but the guy was not taken there: Bedlington where the police held him is much further south, not far from Newcastle.
Posted 2 weeks ago # -
I am sorry to wade in on the issue of killing squirrels but the law states that hunting cannot be done with a pistol: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/how-to/pest-control/rabbit-shooting.cfm
While this article specifies rabbits, I have telephoned BASC and the same applies to squirrels too. Rats can be killed with an air pistol but only by licenced professionals.
Posted 1 week ago # -
I have a neighbor who suffers from having rats come into the garden owing to their bird feeding habits that leaves a lot of corn lying around, Husband shoots at the rats when they appear with an air pistol, one big one he shot at three times over a 2 week period on the fourth time the rat was seen dragging itself across the lawn, back legs paralyzed, it was shot for the fourth time and killed. The rat was not a pretty site previous wounds had festered and become maggot ridden. Surely a more effective way to control the rats, apart from not feeding them in the first place would be to trap and drown them, if it was permitted.
Posted 1 week ago #
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